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Why Is This Happening? The Chris Hayes Podcast

The AI End Game: The Ethics of AI with Timnit Gebru

Why Is This Happening? The Chris Hayes Podcast

MS NOW, Chris Hayes

Msnbc, The Chris Hayes Podcast, Government, Politics, Chris Hayes, Why Is This Happening?, Withpod, Versant, Ms Now, News, Society & Culture, Versant Media

4.69.1K Ratings

🗓️ 26 May 2026

⏱️ 54 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

Timnit Gebru founded the Distributed AI Research Institute after her high-profile exit from Google’s Ethical AI team. She’s been a vocal critic of the systemic lack of diversity in learning models and the need for more inclusion in the space. Her view is that because AI so heavily relies on human input, it largely mirrors pervasive biases inherent in society. What needs to be done to change that? She joins WITHpod to discuss what, in her view, large language models are missing.

Transcript

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0:00.0

It's not just about the ethics of what kind of data you have, whether it's terrible toxic texts

0:06.2

from the dark web or, you know, whether you've stolen it from people or not. Machine learning 101 is that

0:12.9

you don't test on your training set, right? So if you're testing how well your model is doing on a specific task, you have to make sure that the data

0:24.6

in the test set does not have overlap with the training set, because otherwise it's like

0:29.1

studying to the test.

0:34.7

Hello and welcome.

0:35.6

Wise.

0:35.9

It's happening with me, your host, Chris Hayes.

0:55.8

Welcome back to our special with Pod series where we take an examination of AI and all of the embedded questions, complications, themes, worries, aspirations relating to our economy, our society, our culture,

0:58.9

the technical implications, the philosophical implications.

1:03.6

This has been a really joyful project for me because I like learning stuff and I feel like I'm getting somewhere and I hope you guys feel the same way too.

1:06.9

There's lots of ways in which the AI discourse can feel.

1:11.5

I had a friend who's a therapist who said it gave her the feeling of avoidance,

1:14.6

which I thought was interesting.

1:15.9

And I can get that too sometimes.

1:17.8

But then when you sort of pierce through that and do it in the way that I think where you've been trying to do,

1:22.2

I've really been enjoying it.

1:23.4

One of the challenges in the whole discourse is basically this. There's a bunch of really fairly

1:29.8

complex and sophisticated technical questions. That can be, I think, a little difficult for people

1:34.1

who are non-technicians to get their arms around. The people that have expertise, almost A,

1:39.8

as a matter of sheer self-selection and B, financial incentives tend to be pretty big boosters of the

1:46.3

technology. And again, I don't say that because I think people have bad motivations necessarily.

...

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