Well, one thing that I feel like is sort of a healthy tendency with DSA is, because this is kind of our, this episode is about, is the founder, Michael Harrington, who founded it.

But I think something that I like about it is you go to a DSA meeting, you're not saluting a picture of Michael Harrington on the wall.

He's not, you know, venerated. He's

no Babavoccian or anything, right? This is not a cult of personality. If anything, it's, he's

closer to being burned in effigy by a lot of, by a lot of members. And so, you know, I was not super familiar with his life really until I started reading

up for this.

I'd heard things here and there.

One, I remember once doing a reading group and there was something, I think, past and

future socialism, one of those books.

And reading a section from it was actually pretty surprised at how radical it was because

sort of what you hear about him in sort of DSA circles, from new members anyway, is that

he was basically just a liberal, right?

He was to the right of Bernie Sanders, basically, is how it's pitched a lot of times.

And I guess for people who are sort of coming at it from my vantage point, who was Michael

Harrington and what are some of the important things that we should know about him as current members?

So I think what's important to remember, and I'll make three points now that I'm kind of going to come back to.

Sure.

One touching upon what you just said now, which I feel that Michael Harrington is portrayed as more moderate and conservative by two people, two kinds of people.

One, the leftist you're talking about, the people who think they're to the left of DSA but are also in DSA and not.

And also lots of ex-socialists, left liberals who were in DSA, who I think both have incentives.

I think that's important for readers to know that people have like incentives to like betray him as moderate.

One, to be like, why is DSA betraying the Harrington I know?

...