And you know, one of the phrases associated with Benedict XVI and gay Catholics is the language of

intrinsically disordered. That's the language the Catechism uses, I believe. I understand

theologically what it means, but come on, how can you read that and not just feel how ugly it is?

How does that language make sense of the extraordinary stories of caregiving and devotion and love

in the face of brutal death? How can you call that love objectively disordered or intrinsically

disordered? Yeah, there's a, not in particular, who exemplifies this perfectly. Sister Carole

bought the chevets, who moved to New York for six months and was really thrown into HIV and AIDS

care, working for Catholic hospitals. And I mean, her story is exactly this. She doesn't seem to have

been particularly homophobic or anti-gay. She just didn't know any gay people. But when she moves

to New York, like she begins to encounter the gay community because she's caring for people with

HIV and AIDS. And she said it was difficult at first because she knew what the church taught.

She knew the church's general frowning upon homosexuality, but she befriended the gay couple,

one of whom was dying from AIDS in the Catholic hospital, met his partner who was so torn up

about it, but was so devoted in his final days. She had this sort of crisis in her mind, like,

in her words, where how can you say this is wrong? She saw the love and devotion there. She saw

in her interpretation a response to the gospel, to care for people in need, to visit the sick.

And it really shifted her opinion about homosexuality and made her question how the church

talked about these issues. So I think you're right. There's this logical way of thinking about

these sorts of things, but then a practical way of living them out. And when they clash, I think

can be very uncomfortable for some kinds of Catholics, and it requires a real examination of

what these teachings do in their real lives of ordinary people.