I do find Eli's character fascinating in that what he actually believes is kind of an open

question for me, you know, because there are these moments where Eli still has some

propriety to him, right, where he kind of lays into the kids, where he's sort of the disciplinarian,

where he holds the line. And I got this sense, he probably believed more than the kids,

whatever the kind of ambiguity and precise nature of his faith or lack thereof,

that aspect of his characters is partly what makes him fascinating. And that's something I've

asked myself, even when we were talking about Pat Robertson a few weeks ago, you know, did he

really believe that like 9-11 was caused by like Gays and abortion? Did he really believe

the New World Order stuff he was writing about the various prophecies and times?

I don't think that Eli comes across as a cynical person who says, ha ha, I got him,

but I think there is a certain sense. It kind of doesn't occur to him so much, did I believe it?

It's like, well, but that's that's what the show was. You know, I mean, the question of

belief is kind of off the table a lot of the time. Pat Robertson too, you know, I mean like 9-11

happened, right, and gay people are evil, right? So maybe, right, right, right, I don't have to

think about it much more than that. There's something other than cynicism, like you said, the question

of belief is off the table. You don't have to be cynical. You can be just functional in your

relationship to truth. And that is something that the Eli character shows while at the same time,

as Matt's pointing out kind of often revealing this potential remorse and a kind of

wistfulness in his bearing and his way of talking to his children and thinking about his life.

He has shame. He does. He's capable of shame. I think that that is one of the big

things that the show capture so beautifully is this transition of like, Eli is not a great guy.

He's a hustler too, but he still has the space for shame and for reflection. And that is the part

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