I think we should go back farther because we still haven't explained really how we are the weirdos who came to meet each other, like how we got into these issues because something we talk about a lot on the podcast is not a lot of people pay attention to this problem that's changing of course now most people aren't even aware that it's a

problem most people just accept the status quo so like how did the two of you start to see cars or the way we build our cities and towns as a problem that needed fixing even if you didn't know how to fix it.

Okay. We're gonna to fix it. Okay.

We're going to get deep here, yeah.

It was a spring day in 1986.

Probably.

Sometime before my 16th birthday.

Aaron's lying on a couch, Sarah's taking notes.

No, so...

It really was a spring day in 1986.

And I'm just trying to think back to my first driving lesson with my dad and I

remember exactly where it was. It was in this like church parking lot in Cleveland Heights, Ohio and

I would have turned 16 in May of 1986, so it was probably

like February or March of that month, and I was trying to get my driver's license because

like in Cleveland Heights, Ohio, you know, even though it's somewhat walkable and

bikeable, you really needed a driver's license to have any kind of freedom in an eastern

suburb of Cleveland. And so I was desperate to get that driver's license and we're in the

church parking lot we were in my dad's Honda Accord. It was actually a pretty nice little

car and I remember sitting in the driver's seat for the first time and being surprised that when you lifted your foot up off the break the car rolled forward. I was like, okay, learned something new. But before my dad would let me even put the key in the ignition and start the car.

He like looked at me very seriously and he was like, look, here's what you need to understand.

A car is a weapon.

You're like in control of a weapon.

...