To hear the full episode, become a patron at petriam.com slash netpanel pod.

But I think if I could summarize Leonhardt's central arguments here.

Arguments are, you know, we're sort of really being generous here.

Because I do think that part of the retort, like, you don't have to make, it doesn't have to be an argument.

Right.

In the sense that like, it doesn't have to be a clear claim that you then sort of defend in some way.

Like, it's, it's very half formed.

Claim is good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Claims is good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

His, uh, his, uh, his Leonhardt's unfounded claims include, um, one, uh, basically,

one thing that we've talked about, uh, often actually that because any old mask is not

as good as a high quality mask, which is true.

Or also because not wearing a mask well is not as good as wearing a mask well, which is true, or also because not wearing a mask well is not as good as

wearing a mask well, which is true, that that, that those things mean that masking itself,

you know, as a broad protection is, is ineffective. That masking by all of society together is

broadly ineffective, which is not true.

Uh, a second point, uh, a second claim, rather that sense, according to him and some of the

scare quotes experts that he has consulted, uh, people like Lena Wend and, uh, J.G. Allen and

...