And then you have the other path and the other path is where the grift comes in the other path and this has been around for centuries it's nothing new

It's the charismatic teacher who claims to have magical powers who claims that they're gonna you're gonna go down a certain path with them and then you're going to have this big sort of revelation,

you're going to start to communicate with the spirit world, you're going to ascend to another plane of existence, like all of that kind of stuff,

it never goes well. It just never goes well.

I've seen Wild Wild Country, man.

Yeah.

Pretty soon, one day the next, you're putting ground up beavers into a water supply.

That doesn't go well.

Yeah, so either the kind of quote unquote spiritual path is getting you more intimate with the reality of being human in a very honest way or it is further dissociating you into just complete craziness and and those are actually the two options for the most part

Lastly suggestions and have you ever successfully been able to pull someone back from the brink

So I have not been able to pull someone from the brink. So I have not been able to pull someone from the brink in terms of like going deep into QAnon stuff, but as we talked

about earlier, we've had quite a few people who were anti-vaxfers who as a result of listening to our

podcast have have changed their minds that have ended up getting vaccinated the one that

was the most meaningful for me was someone I've known for many years who I consider a friend

someone who come on some of my retreats who had just been involved with you know

natural naturopathy and was a coach and had a daughter who I think now is maybe like seven or eight years old, had not given her daughter any of her vaccinations when COVID came around, was not going to get the COVID vaccine, was terrified.