TAM+ EP 90 Beyond Quick Fixes: The Deeper Transformation of Second-Order Change
The Addicted Mind Podcast
Duane Osterlind, LMFT
4.7 • 655 Ratings
🗓️ 16 October 2025
⏱️ 19 minutes
🧾️ Download transcript
Summary
Download: FIRST-ORDER CHANGE VS. SECOND-ORDER CHANGE
Are you making changes but feeling stuck in your recovery journey? It could be because you're focusing on first-order changes. These are the surface-level adjustments we make – quitting a substance, changing routines – but they don't address the root of the problem.
That's where second-order change comes in. This is about digging deeper into your anxieties, past traumas, and the underlying beliefs that drive addictive behaviors. It's a transformation, not just a tweak.
Think of it like this: first-order change is running on a treadmill – you're moving, but not getting anywhere. Second-order change is taking the exit ramp and finding a new path.
Second-order change is the key to lasting recovery. So how do you get there? This episode breaks it down and helps you figure out where you might need extra support along the way.
Key Topics
- What first-order change is and why it's important early on
- Second-order change and how it leads to lasting recovery
- Examples of each type of change
- How to start that deeper, second-order work
- The value of therapy or coaching for this transformation
Key Moments
- [00:01:00] – The treadmill trap: Why some changes feel pointless
- [00:03:00] – Beyond willpower: What if just stopping isn't enough?
- [00:05:00] – Real-world examples to help you identify your type of change
- [00:08:00] – When is enough, enough? How to recognize you need deeper work
- [00:10:00] – The scary (but worthwhile) path to second-order change
- [00:14:00] – "I can see it in them": Signs you've done the deeper work
- [00:17:00] – Your action plan: Next steps for leveling up your recovery
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Transcript
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| 0:00.0 | Welcome to the Addicted Mind Plus, the podcast where recovery, mental health and wellness take the front seat. |
| 0:07.6 | I'm Dwayne Austerland and joining me is my co-host, Eric Osterland, known for his insightful work on the Stuck Brain podcast. |
| 0:15.2 | In each episode, we'll dive into actionable, small steps to help those in recovery journey further along the path to wellness. |
| 0:22.6 | Our conversations are designed to be concise, typically around 15 minutes, though we may |
| 0:27.6 | occasionally delve deeper when the topic demands it. Our goal to provide you with practical |
| 0:32.6 | advice grounded in real experiences and expert insights to empower your recovery journey. |
| 0:39.2 | So whether you're on a break, on a walk, or just taking a moment for yourself, join us as we |
| 0:43.8 | explore the many facets of recovery and mental health, one small step at a time. |
| 0:48.9 | This is The Addicted Mind Plus, where your journey to wellness gets an extra boost. |
| 0:53.7 | So let's get started. All right, everyone. Welcome to The Addicted Mind Plus, where your journey to wellness gets an extra boost, so let's get started. |
| 0:55.2 | All right, everyone. |
| 0:56.1 | Welcome to The Addicted Mind Plus. |
| 0:58.1 | Today we're going to talk about first order change versus second order change. |
| 1:02.9 | To understand the difference is going to help you see what changes in your life can really |
| 1:09.9 | help you because often we get stuck in first order change. |
| 1:14.1 | It's the more things change, the more they stay the same. And we're going to look at the difference |
| 1:18.7 | between first order change and second order change. Absolutely. This is exciting because it gives |
| 1:24.5 | us a way to visualize the concept. A lot of people don't realize that |
| 1:29.0 | there's two types of change. And so they start with the initial change, but they don't make a deeper |
| 1:33.7 | change. And I think a clue when you're stuck in first order change is that you're making |
| 1:39.2 | changes in your life and they might be good changes, but they're not really moving you forward. They're not |
| 1:45.6 | really moving you to the place you want to be. So you feel stuck. And recovery is about that |
... |
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