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The Lawfare Podcast

Susan Landau and Ross Anderson on the Going Dark Debate and the Risks of Client-Side Scanning

The Lawfare Podcast

The Lawfare Institute

Politics, Terrorism, National Security, News, Foreign Policy, Diplomacy, Intelligence, Rule Of Law, Military, Constitutional Law, Current Events, International Relations, History, International Law, Government, Law

4.76.4K Ratings

🗓️ 10 November 2021

⏱️ 54 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

The “going dark” debate, which concerns how society and the technology industry should address the challenges that law enforcement faces in investigating crime due to the increasing use of encryption on mobile devices and by communication platforms and services, was in the news again because of Apple's recent proposal to engage in client-side scanning. Apple planned to scan iPhones for child sexual abuse material, or CSAM, before such images were uploaded to iCloud. Prior to Apple's announcement, however, a distinguished group of computer scientists and engineers were already working on a paper to explain the security and privacy risks of client-side scanning. The paper, which they have now released, is called “Bugs in our Pockets: The Risks of Client-Side Scanning.” 

To talk about this most recent development in the going dark debate, Stephanie Pell sat down with two of the paper’s authors: Susan Landau, Bridge Professor of Cybersecurity and Policy in The Fletcher School and at the School of Engineering, Department of Computer Science, at Tufts University; and Ross Anderson, professor of security engineering at the University of Cambridge and at the University of Edinburgh. They discussed some of the most significant privacy and security risks client-side scanning creates, why client-side scanning requires a different analysis from other aspects of the discussion about government access to encrypted data, and why the authors of the paper consider client-side scanning to be a dangerous technology.

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Transcript

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0:00.0

The following podcast contains advertising to access an ad-free version of the LawFair

0:07.2

podcast become a material supporter of LawFair at patreon.com slash LawFair.

0:14.7

That's patreon.com slash LawFair.

0:18.2

Also, check out LawFair's other podcast offerings, rational security, chatter, LawFair

0:25.6

no bull and the aftermath.

0:34.0

Whenever you talk about a surveillance technology, you have to first talk about, is it efficacious?

0:39.5

Because if it isn't efficacious, then you don't even have to debate whether or not you're

0:43.0

going to use it.

0:44.9

I'm Stephanie Pell and this is the LawFair podcast, November 10, 2021.

0:51.3

The going dark debate, which concerns how society and the technology industry should address

0:56.1

the challenges law enforcement faces in investigating crime due to the increasing news of encryption

1:02.7

on mobile devices and by communication platforms and services was in the news again because

1:08.7

of Apple's recent proposal to engage in client side scanning.

1:13.7

Apple planned to scan iPhones for child sexual abuse material or CSAM before such images

1:20.6

were uploaded to iCloud.

1:23.1

Prior to Apple's announcement, however, a distinguished group of computer scientists and

1:27.6

engineers were already working on a paper to explain the security and privacy risks of

1:33.3

client side scanning.

1:35.3

The paper, which they have now released, is called Bugs in our Pockets, the risks of client

1:41.0

side scanning.

1:42.5

To talk about this most recent development in a going dark debate, I sat down with two

1:47.6

of the paper's authors, Susan Landau, bridge professor of cyber security and policy at

...

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