All right. I am super excited about our guest today, who I've been looking forward to speaking with in this context for a long time.

It may seem like it's a topic a little off the beaten path from what we normally cover, but actually, I think with a little bit of examination, you'll see, normally is it relevant, but relevant in a way that brings a lot of unique insight.

My guest is Stephen Fishback, known for lots of things.

He is a two-time contestant on the reality TV show on CBS News, on CBS Survivor.

He got to the finals of one of those seasons.

Didn't get a lot of votes.

Didn't get any votes, actually, but nonetheless made the finals a big accomplishment.

Also has become just a very influential and well-like voice within reality TV podcast,

ones that are very popular.

And the thing we wanted to talk to him about today is his new book, he's written a novel

that relates to reality TV, but also a lot of the themes that make reality TV and

its emergence so interesting. The novel is Escape. I have read it. I've actually been trying, we've been trying to set this up for a few weeks, so happy to we finally do it. Already a national bestseller on the USA Today and Other List. Stephen, it's so great to see you in this format. Thanks for joining me. This is such a tremendous honor. I'm sort of honored like I'm incredulous and a little dazzled to be here. So thank you for having me. Yeah, we were joking before we began that I needed a few minutes to kind of orient myself because I'm used to listening to you. I do listen. I think I've talked before that my secret advice is I do watch Survivor. I find it super fascinating. And the only podcast I listen to is the one you're on after each episode where you analyze it. So actually talking to you directly, even though we've talked by text and the like, is still something I'm getting used to. So I'm going to make you talk most of the time so that my weirdness is not super visible. All right. Let me begin. You know, it is interesting. I do, you know,

reality TV is something you obviously, if you're an American, you don't, you can't avoid even

if you want to. It's become such a gigantic part of our cultural discourse of just of media,

of entertainment, of television, really like this dominant force. And having watched it as I

just confess to having done,

there are a lot of people who I look at and think,

oh yeah,

this is obviously like the type of person who's just made for reality TV,

who would obviously do anything to get on television.

Reality TV is their best avenue in because of how they behave,

how they conduct themselves.

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