Stuart Kauffman: There Is No Theory of Everything

Theories of Everything with Curt Jaimungal

Curt Jaimungal

Physics, Philosophy, Society & Culture, Science

4.6 • 606 Ratings

🗓️ 20 January 2026

⏱️ 86 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

This is an interview with Stuart Kauffman, one of the founders of complexity theory. He invented random Boolean networks at only 23 years old and helped establish the Santa Fe Institute. Now 86, he makes a striking claim: there is no theory of everything. Kauffman argues that biological evolution creates genuinely new possibilities that cannot be deduced from prior states—paralleling the ancient Chinese Tao more than Plato's Logos. He also believes he's found something new in quantum gravity (and, in his words, "genuinely huge"). He unveils it here for the first time. I personally subscribe to The Economist. TOE listeners get 35% off the annual subscription. No other podcast has this! https://economist.com/TOE SUPPORT: - Support me on Substack: https://curtjaimungal.substack.com/subscribe - Support me on Crypto: https://commerce.coinbase.com/checkout/de803625-87d3-4300-ab6d-85d4258834a9 - Support me on PayPal: https://www.paypal.com/donate?hosted_button_id=XUBHNMFXUX5S4 JOIN MY SUBSTACK (Personal Writings): https://curtjaimungal.substack.com LISTEN ON SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/4gL14b92xAErofYQA7bU4e LINKS MENTIONED: - Investigations [Book]: https://amazon.com/dp/B00W0DHAH6?tag=toe08-20 - Stuart Kauffman's Books [Amazon]: https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B000APT8XK - A Third Transition In Science? [Article]: https://royalsocietypublishing.org/rsfs/article/13/3/20220063/89381/A-third-transition-in-science-A-third-transition - Genetic Regulatory Mechanisms In Protein Synthesis [Paper]: https://www.gs.washington.edu/academics/courses/braun/55106/readings/jacob_and_monod.pdf - Is Mind In Spacetime? [Paper]: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38969235/ - The World Is Not A Theorem [Paper]: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2101.00284 - Origins Of Order [Book]: https://amazon.com/dp/0195079515?tag=toe08-20 - The Universal Constructor [Article]: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.157.3785.180.a - Metabolic Stability And Epigenesis In Random Genetic Nets [Paper]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0022519369900150 - Antichaos And Adaptation [Article]: https://www.jstor.org/stable/24938683 - The Selfish Gene [Book]: https://amazon.com/dp/0199291152?tag=toe08-20 - Biological Organization As Closure Of Constraints [Paper]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022519315001009 - Physics And Philosophy [Book]: https://amazon.com/dp/0061209198?tag=toe08-20 - Combinatorial Chemistry: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/nursing-and-health-professions/combinatorial-chemistry - Connections [Series]: https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/amzn1.dv.gti.484e32c5-60bd-4493-a800-e44fd0940312 - Gonen Ashkenasy's Papers: https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=7kP7Fi4AAAAJ - Michael Levin [TOE]: https://youtu.be/c8iFtaltX-s - Anna Ciaunica & Michael Levin [TOE]: https://youtu.be/2aLhkm6QUgA - Plato's Cave [TOE]: https://youtu.be/PurNlwnxwfY - "Is God A Taoist?" [TOE]: https://youtu.be/P-jh6tRh3Jw - Chiara Marletto [TOE]: https://youtu.be/40CB12cj_aM - John Donoghue [TOE]: https://youtu.be/dG_uKJx6Lpg - Yang-Hui He [TOE]: https://youtu.be/wbP0KjWm0pw - Tim Palmer [TOE]: https://youtu.be/vlklA6jsS8A - Tim Maudlin [TOE]: https://youtu.be/fU1bs5o3nss - Lee Smolin [TOE]: https://youtu.be/uOKOodQXjhc - Carlo Rovelli [TOE]: https://youtu.be/hF4SAketEHY - Geoffrey Hinton [TOE]: https://youtu.be/b_DUft-BdIE - Richard Dawkins's Lecture: https://youtu.be/nfZMyJq6BBM Theories of Everything with Curt Jaimungal features long-form, technically detailed interviews with leading researchers in physics, mathematics, consciousness, and philosophy, exploring topics at the level of active research. For academics, graduate students, and anyone seeking depth beyond popular science. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0	Something unexpected has arrived in Happy Meal.
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0:08.0	Joining your little ones on a fun-fueled adventure.
0:11.0	Some fun, some food, it's all inside this Happy Meal.
0:14.0	Until the 2nd of February from 11am includes one pre-selected book or toy whilst it's last.
0:20.0	So if I'm right, there is no theory of everything.
0:23.8	We tend to operate on the sonorous promise that the world is understandable.
0:29.0	Plato called it the logos.
0:30.7	Newton built his mechanics on it.
0:32.7	Even I, Kurt Jemungle, with this channel,
0:35.3	explicate theories of everything which assumes this intelligibility.
0:39.6	Stuart Kaufman, one of the founders of complexity theory, says this assumption is egregiously incorrect.
0:46.2	Kaufman actually finds a parallel to ancient Chinese philosophy. The tau that can be said is not the
0:51.7	eternal tau. The biosphere that can be described is not the biosphere
0:56.3	that will become. Toward the end of this conversation, Stuart Kaufman outlines some speculation on
1:01.7	quantum gravity. He believes non-locality rules out string theory, loop quantum gravity, and even the holographic
1:08.1	principle. He maps von Neumann entropy to spatial distance, deriving to sitter space from entanglement.
1:14.6	Don't worry, all of these technicalities are explained in the podcast itself.
1:19.0	Now, whether this holds up, he admits, requires independent verification, but the biology,
1:24.0	that's been 63 years in the making.
1:27.0	I'm excited to bring you one of the only ever recorded podcast with someone who helped
1:31.7	build complexity theory from scratch, invented random Boolean networks at 23, and helped
	...

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