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no bull and the aftermath.

When you listen to the rhetoric of East Central European populace like Orban in Hungary or

Kaczynski in Poland, one of the things you're hearing most often is the slogan. This

is their favorite slogan is, we don't want to be copies, we want to be ourselves.

When Ivan Krasdev, who's my co-author and I, we're listening to this, it occurred to

us that there's something there's a clue here to understanding why the process of democratization

and liberalization produced a politics of grievance and resentment. And that's because once you

see that democratization was a process of imitation and then you realize that imitation

often produces resentment for the simple reason that to want to imitate someone is to

confess that they're better than you. And over time, this hierarchical relation between

the superior model and the inferior imitator can be grating, can be humiliating, can make

you feel like you've been dispossessed of your culture.

I'm Jacob Schultz and this is the LawFair podcast April 4, 2020.

Stephen Holmes is the Walter E. Meyer Professor of Law at New York University. With Ivan Krasdev,

he's the author of The Light That Failed, O'Reckoning. Jack Goldsmith sat down with Holmes to

talk about his new book and much more. The pair discuss the fate of liberalism in the

decades following the fall of the Berlin Wall. Holmes is experienced studying Eastern

European politics, the problems with trying to export liberalism across the world, and

...