Hello, I'm Hugo Rifkin, and now we're going to be unpacking the politics of the day,

and there's a lot to talk about. From the careful line, Stahmer is walking to avoid upsetting Donald Trump,

to why falling migration numbers may be the most overlooked story in UK politics,

and will the PM's new survival strategy actually work? And joining me to survival experts think of them as the times as an answer to bear grills and raymirs and they are seb pain hello Seb Payne hello Seb I always think of myself as a bear grills thank very much you go happy new year well and that means Charlotte Ivers is raymere's hello I suppose so there we are I'm not sure I'd put you necessarily that way around, or any way around.

Or let's just talk about other things before I say something really weird. Let's begin with Venezuela. Over the weekend, Donald Trump sent US commandos into Venezuela, captured the president, and took him home. It's an extraordinary story. It took Kirstarman more than 16 hours to respond to it. and when he did respond, it was a bit flat and opaque when it came.

Seb, what do you think was going on here for the Prime Minister? than 16 hours to respond to it. And when he did respond, it was a bit flat and opaque when it came.

Seb, what do you think was going on here for the prime minister? Because, like, he's a devotee of

international law, says it often. He's also sucked up mightily to America. These two things

were very much intention. He seems to have kind of fudged it. Yeah, I think Kirstama wants to

try and get through this crisis by saying as little as possible with as little substance as possible, because everything he says will cause him problems. If he is to praise what Donald Trump has done, you know, in terms of, I don't know, taking out an illegitimate, ruthless dictator, then he would get it in the neck from his human rights colleagues in the left, the Labour Party. If he criticised Donald Trump, then he'll get it in the neck from, well, Donald Trump. So I think at the moment, you know, the example of this was Mike Tapp, who is the immigration minister, who was on the morning rounds this morning, who basically we don't give a commentary on running events, which, I mean, governments often do give a commentary on running events. It's kind of what they're there for in many respects. So it's a really difficult spot for Kirstama. And obviously, within this whole thing, the UK is basically irrelevant, right? We don't have any interest or any say in what really goes on in Latin America. So this is more just being commentator on what we have to think about it. So in terms of hard policy, it's not much the UK can really do or say here. But I do think when it comes to Kirstama, he's obviously got much of the left of the Labour part, being very angry. Richard Bergen, one of your favourite Labour MPs. Love him. I knew you would. He had a virtual online rally yesterday and has having a real.

A virtual online rally.

Gosh, I know exactly which otherwise we would call a Zoom call.

Right.

Whereas today they're having a real in-person rally at Downing Street saying hands off Venezuela.

So it's kind of not quite supporting Maduro, but it's obviously sort of semi giving, you know know, giving curry to his regime and just criticising Trump. And that's what Keir wants to avoid it in the neck from. Charlotte, so Stama said he would shed no tears for the end of Maduro's regime. And he said he was an illegitimate president and that Britain had long supported a transition of power. But he also reiterated his support for international law. It's quite striking, I think Seb is right to say we're basically irrelevant in this,

but it's quite striking to be both irrelevant and yet not at liberty to say what you want to say.

You see what I mean?

So constrained by responsibility while it being sort of irrelevant, whether you get it right or wrong,

it's a very weird situation to be in.

It is rather.

I saw quite a depressing conversation on X last night. Some guy had said

something along the lines of we're all just in a great powers world now and you know,

...