The Brand and Sherry Oddcast, sponsored by Fellowship Home Loans. To find out more about the radio show or to order Brandt's new book, The Truth About Us, go to brantt Hanson.com.

Greetings podcast, friends. Thank you for your patience as we have been traveling. Actually, I'm done traveling and Brandt should be done here

in the next day or two. So I'm sure we'll talk about all that we've done over the last couple of

weeks on the podcast. But we've had some interviews here for you. And here is another one. This is

fascinating. Brandt sent it to me a few days ago and I just listened to it, like literally before posting it. I just listened to it. And my goodness, yeah, it's just fascinating. So he is talking to author Chuck de Groat. And by the way, Brandt did this interview via Zoom. So you may hear the audio quality kind of go in and out just a little bit,

just a heads up. But I'll let Brent continue with his introduction of Chuck. Chuck de Grode is

Professor of Pastoral Care and Christian Spirituality. That's a wide-ranging thing at Western Theological

Seminary in Holland, Michigan. He is a longtime pastor, licensed therapist, and author of five books,

including the one I want to talk about, which is when narcissism comes to church, healing your

community from emotional and spiritual abuse. And this came out earlier this year. So this is his

latest. Chuck, thanks for making time, man. You sure you don't want to talk about one of the other

books? Do you have to talk about one of the other books?

Do you have to talk about narcissism?

No, this is people who've listened to our podcasts for a while,

know this comes up from time to time.

Because both Sherry and I, Sherry is my show's producer,

but we're just kind of baffled why we put up with certain things or why the church puts up with certain things. But I want you to talk first, though, if you don't mind, about, obviously,

we're all narcissistic to some extent, but it's also in the diagnostic manual that there's

a narcissistic personality disorder. Where does it become a disorder? What are we talking about here?

Yeah, that's good. I appreciate you saying that. I mean, I think writing a book, self-promoting,

all of those things, you have to be a little narcissistic, I think, to write and to speak and to do

all those things. And I even work at a seminary where we often say, you know, how many people like

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