You're listening to a Bill Bennett podcast special feature. It's a conversation with Charles Koch. He is the chairman and CEO of Koch Industries.

This episode is part five of our eight-part conversation and we discuss the virtuous cycle.

At this point in our discussion Charles begins to give us insight on why he's making such

a huge effort to deal with the problems we face in society.

Here's Charles Koch.

Well, I've been fascinated with the principles of human progress for a long time. And what I've learned is the history of humanity has been the story of the struggle of people trying to make a better life for themselves but being held back by those in power.

And to me, this is the great tragedy of the human condition because I believe the evidence is that virtually everybody has the

capability to learn, contribute, and succeed if they have the freedom and opportunity to do so.

Because when they do, it enables them

to become motivated, to become productive,

and innovative. Basically, because all of us have a gift of some kind or another.

And for each of us, that particular gift or aptitude is different.

You and I have spoken and talked about different philosophers.

For a long time, I did a PhD in philosophy, I wrote about man in a state of nature as the philosophers had it.

And as you know, people like Rousseau thought man in a state of nature was fine.

And then when he entered society society he went into chains.

Hobbs, you know in the English tradition thought famously life in the state of nature is

solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short, and that we enter civil society in order for things to be better.

And then there's another tradition of John Locke, which is closer to, you know, our guys and what they thought when they were writing the Declaration of Independence.

Before society, if we can think of it as a reality or as a thought experiment, What is the state of man?

I mean, you've already described,

everyone has a gift or talent.

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