Shutdown/Confronting Leviathan
TALKING POLITICS
Catherine Carr
4.7 • 2.5K Ratings
🗓️ 23 September 2021
⏱️ 65 minutes
🧾️ Download transcript
Summary
We’re back from our summer break with David, Helen and Adam Tooze exploring what the pandemic has revealed about politics, economics and the new world order. From Covid crisis to China crisis to climate crisis: how does it all fit together? And what comes next? Adam’s new book is Shutdown: How Covid Shook the World’s Economy. Plus David talks about his new book based on series one of History of Ideas: Confronting Leviathan.
Talking Points:
The term ‘lockdown’ can be misleading. Many aspects of the response were not top-down.
- Most of the reduction in mobility predated government mandate.
- The financial markets made huge moves and central banks then had to step in.
- The popular response cannot be separated from the actions of the state.
The term ‘shutdown’ better captures the pandemic’s impact on the economy.
- Huge parts of the productive economy literally ground to a halt.
- It seems like central banks learned something from the last crisis.
- Is there still a realistic prospect of normalization? Adam and Helen are skeptical.
Is there such thing as democratic money?
- If so, then democracy has changed.
- The condition of possibility for the freedom of action of central bankers is a political vacuum.
- Parts of the left see an opportunity in monetary politics.
The entire monetary order in China is political, but there was a debate within the regime over stimulus.
- The conservatives won out.
- Some Western financial leaders used this to push back against central bankers in their own countries.
The Republican party is becoming increasingly incoherent.
- Some, such as Mnuchin, emphasize the structural necessity of some kind of continuity.
- Others, such as Jay Powell, argue that the priority is confronting China.
- There is an ongoing de-centering from the West in a dollar-based world.
The U.S.-China competition has changed.
- We have moved from a realm of competition over GDP growth rates to a much starker contest involving hard power.
- The tech sanctions are a sovereignty issue, not just an economic issue.
Mentioned in this Episode:
Transcript
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| 0:00.0 | Hello, my name is David Ronsman and this is Talking Politics. We are back from our summer |
| 0:16.0 | break and we are delighted to be back. Today, Helen Thompson, Adam Tusson and I are going |
| 0:22.4 | to be talking about what we've learned about politics, economics and the world order during |
| 0:27.5 | 18 months of pandemic. Talking Politics is brought to you in partnership with the London |
| 0:37.3 | Rio of Books, which has its own weekly podcast. Recent episodes include Dominic West, Reading |
| 0:44.3 | Patrick Lee Firmall, a mini series of encounters with the lives and voices of women in medieval |
| 0:50.2 | literature and an interview with me about Peter Teal, the subject of my latest LRB piece. |
| 0:57.5 | Research for the LRB podcast on Apple Podcasts Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. |
| 1:14.2 | For this conversation, Helen and I were joined on Tuesday from New York by Adam. We're |
| 1:20.4 | talking about his new book, Shut Down, but as with any conversation between Adam and |
| 1:25.8 | Helen, this one goes in all sorts of different directions, but we started with the question |
| 1:31.5 | of the title of his book. Adam, you're definitely not a lockdown skeptic by any means, but |
| 1:38.8 | you are skeptical about some of the ways in which we frame lockdown and the language |
| 1:42.4 | of lockdown, the idea that it was or is this coercive top down form of politics and government |
| 1:50.3 | and it misses all the ways in which what we've been through in the last 18 months, a lot |
| 1:53.4 | of it has been bottom up and governments have been reacting. So your book is Shut Down, |
| 1:59.8 | not lockdown. Just take us through the different shutdown and lockdown. |
| 2:04.2 | Yeah, I mean, to be clear, I think there are some places in the world where the language |
| 2:07.4 | of lockdown is entirely appropriate and it would be scandalous in a sense to put that |
| 2:12.0 | in question. If you look at South Africa, for instance, in the townships there in |
| 2:16.8 | the spring of 2020, there was really the deployment of armed force in India, likewise. |
| 2:23.0 | And even within the West, or with global north, there's a huge difference between the |
... |
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