Hello and welcome to today's independent travel podcast with me Simon Calder.

It's Thursday the 14th of May.

Sometimes there are locations that over a spell of time come up more and more often

and make you think, crikey, I have to go there. And one really good example at the moment

is Pakistan. In the course of just 48 hours, I have heard from several different people about

the wonders of that country. And so I have been talking to Sadia Baba. She is the founder and chief executive of Experience Pakistan, a very noted tour operator.

I often say to people when they ask me what is there to see and do in Pakistan,

I always say it's a bit like India.

You can't do the country in one bit.

If I were to categorise it, Pakistan can be defined as three different types of trips you can do. One is what I call the scenic holidays, which is up north in the bit. If I were to categorize it, Pakistan can be defined as three different types of trips

you can do. One is what I call the scenic holidays, which is up north in Pakistan. And typically the

best time to do that is from April through to probably end of September, October. And then you've got

what I call my cultural heritage. So it's a lot more about history, architecture, archaeology. And that tends to be

better to do from October through to March, only because the more south you go to Pakistan, the hotter it gets. So if you were to do that trip in July, August, you're talking about temperatures of high 40s. So very unbearable and not very well, and not good for health and safety. And then finally, what people don't know is recreational. So whether it's a yoga

retreat you want to enjoy or golfing holidays or even cricket, international crickets back in

Pakistan and you've got the Pakistan Super League which tends to happen in February March. So they're

great holidays that people just unaware that they can enjoy in Pakistan. Let's start in the north with,

I guess, some of the highest mountains in the world and this fascinating area,

which is really kind of bordered very closely by China, by India, by Afghanistan.

To be honest, there's a misconception.

I often get people say we'd love to see the mountains, but we're not trekkers.

I think you can do the north as trekking, but you do not have to be a trekker. My family certainly're not trekkers. I think you can do the north as, you know, trekking,

...