Hey, Jay.

Hey, how's it going?

I'm good. How are you?

Good.

So you've written a couple pieces lately about the state of political protest and dissent.

And I'm curious what, in your opinion, is the most recent example of a, like, successful, effective or sustaining political protest in the United States.

Yeah, I guess I could think of two examples, one on the left and one on the right.

The first on the right would be the anti-abortion movement, right, which started small and almost like obscure in terms of small

Catholic organizers, mostly who mostly laughed at and thought as very marginal and then grew

and, you know, sort of won a, they won a large Supreme Court decision that they would always

wanted recently. The second is the gay marriage movement, right, which became, took a

synthesis of a lot of the gay rights movements that had been existing before and then put it under

one political goal, right, and then normalized everything through activism, advocacy, influencing

politicians, and then obviously now we have gay marriage, you know,

every state in the country. Why those two examples? I mean, is it because it's a clear example of,

you know, there's something that starts on the ground, and then there is a policy change that

happens through, you know, legal and political machinery? Like, is that kind of how we're

defining effective here? Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think that if you look at something like

Black Lives Matter, which started, I guess if you trace it all the way back, it starts with, you know,

before Mike Brown, and then goes all the way to 2020 with George Floyd.

But if you look at what happened after 2020,

which was just a lot of, I guess, chaotic organizing and big, big marches

...