Should Biden Push for Regime Change in Russia?

The New Yorker Radio Hour

WNYC Studios and The New Yorker

Politics, Arts, News, Wnyc, Books, David, Storytelling, Society & Culture, Yorker, New, Remnick

4.2 • 6.2K Ratings

🗓️ 3 October 2023

⏱️ 24 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

Throughout the Russian invasion of Ukraine, David Remnick has talked with Stephen Kotkin, a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution who is deeply informed on U.S.-Russia relations, and a biographer of Stalin. With the Ukrainian counter-offensive proceeding very slowly, Kotkin says that Ukraine is unlikely to “win the peace” on the battlefield; an armistice on Zelensky’s terms—although they may be morally correct—would require the defeat of Russia itself. Realistically, he thinks, Ukraine must come to accept some loss of territory in exchange for security guarantees. And, without heavy political pressure from the U.S., Kotkin tells David Remnick, no amount of military aid would be sufficient. “We took regime change off the table,” Kotkin notes regretfully. “That’s so much bigger than the F-16s or the tanks or the long-range missiles because that’s the variable . . . . When he’s scared that his regime could go down, he’ll cut and run. And if he’s not scared about his regime, he'll do the sanctions busting. He’ll do everything he’s doing because it’s with impunity.” Share your thoughts on The New Yorker Radio Hour podcast.

Transcript

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0:00.0	This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.
0:09.9	This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick.
0:15.2	The other week, the president of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelensky, was in the United States, meeting at the United Nations
0:21.4	and in Washington. Now, when he was last in this country, in December, Zelensky addressed a joint
0:27.5	session of Congress. He was hailed as a hero with constant standing ovations. But this time around,
0:34.0	things were a little different. Kevin McCarthy said Congress was just too busy to assemble a
0:39.3	joint session, too busy trying to a self-imposed shutdown. And much of conservative Washington
0:46.0	is now balking at the price tag of military aid to Ukraine. It's no longer a handful of Putin's
0:52.3	sympathizers on the far right.
0:55.0	Even in Europe, Zelensky is now caught up in a diplomatic fight with one of his very
0:59.4	closest allies, Poland.
1:02.5	Since the war began, I've been speaking periodically with Stephen Kotkin.
1:06.9	Kotkin is a historian, an expert on authoritarianism and Stalin, but he's also one of the best informed people I know on the war that's going on right now in Ukraine.
1:18.5	Stephen Kotkin, welcome back. This is our third conversation during this Godforsaken war.
1:25.3	And it's a very simple question that I have.
1:31.0	Where are we now after a year and a half?
1:37.1	Ukraine is battling the courage and the ingenuity are still there.
1:38.9	But they're running out of people.
1:42.5	They're running out of 18 to 30-year-olds.
1:53.0	The average age of the Ukrainian soldiers training in Europe at the bases in Germany or the UK is 35 or older.
1:55.3	They're running out of munitions.
1:58.0	They're running out of any aircraft missiles.
	...

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