Sh*tty Minister’s Club with Lillian Daniel (#394)

Religion on the Mind

Religion & Spirituality, Religion, Spirituality

4.7 • 542 Ratings

🗓️ 13 April 2026

⏱️ 79 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

Lillian Daniel returns after five years to discuss her new book Defrocked: Good News from a Bad Pastor for a Better Church — a candid, often funny, and deeply human account of the misconduct process she underwent in the UCC, what it taught her about identity, boundaries, and shame, and how she eventually found her way back to ministry. Highlights: Power, process, and accountability Over-identification with vocation Boundaries (and the lack thereof) Shame vs. guilt, done right Lillian's New Book | Defrocked: Good News from a Bad Pastor for a Better Church Previous episode with Lillian: The Most & Least Plausible Christian Claims (#117) ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.instagram.com/dancoke/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Or Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠twitter.com/DanKoch⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Faith deconstruction resources: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.soyouredeconstructing.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠patreon.com/dankoch⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠youhavepermissionpodcast@gmail.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ YHP Patron-only FB group: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Join Dan's email list: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.dankochwords.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Artwork by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Nickryanluevano.com⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0	Welcome back, everybody, to Religion on the Mind.
0:11.7	I'm your host, Dr. Dan Koch, licensed therapist, and I am here with, really, it's been, it's been too long and I can't give a convincing reason why.
0:22.4	Lillian Daniel, welcome back, Lillian.
0:25.4	Good to be back with you.
0:28.0	Five years ago in May of 2021, one of the sort of all-time popular episodes under you have permission, the old name.
0:36.9	Like, it remained kind of a top 10, top 15 out of 300 episode.
0:42.5	We called it the most and least plausible Christian claims.
0:47.5	And that was a pre-generation gap culture hour, Tony Jones, joined you. You guys are lifelong besties. And so it's great to
0:58.7	have you back. That was a fun one. I remember that. It was a fun one. We got a lot of laughs in on that
1:05.4	one, if I recall correctly. And also, it was, it had some real heart to it. First of all, Tony now, especially regular listeners know he is sort of taken the grumpus persona. That's like his role. And to force him to talk about, you know, that it is really plausible that something really special was going on with Jesus of
1:27.8	Nazareth. I just like making him like affirmate, affirm some things that he really found valuable
1:35.0	in the church. I know, of course, he does, but, you know, it's just, it was, it's funny to force him to be
1:40.2	that way. He came out of and spoke to us in my new job here. So I'm in Michigan as a
1:46.8	conference minister overseeing our churches out here in Michigan. But we had Tony come out and do a
1:52.0	thing on his book, The God of Wild Places. It was great. Yeah. It was really fun. Well, speaking of books,
1:57.5	you have a book that is out in April. It's called Defrocked, Good News from a Bad Pastor for a Better Church. And I think maybe the simplest way to say it is, since you were last year five years ago, you have been through a bit of an ordeal.
2:13.1	Well, so not so much five years ago, but I guess, you know, the book is a story about something that I experienced over 10 years ago.
2:24.3	Oh, okay. Yeah, I got the timeline.
2:26.1	Yeah.
2:26.3	Okay.
2:26.8	But it's one of those things, stories in life that you don't go around telling everybody about necessarily.
2:34.1	Right, right.
	...

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