Her presentation is that everything that went wrong for Donald Trump in the first administration

was the result of a fractious White House staff.

Success depended on Trump being able to do what Trump wanted to do.

Let Trump be Trump.

He doesn't want her on television.

He feels she does not look the part.

She's the most unimportant, important person or important, unimportant person.

She knows in that classic kind of way, which you often don't find in politics, she knows her place.

Michael.

Joanna?

I am very excited about this episode because we are doing a deeper dive than usual into a character

that I am really fascinated by and I know you know a lot about.

The most important, unimportant person in the nation, or maybe the most unimportant,

important person in the nation.

Okay. Who's almost never speaks on television. She's. nation or maybe the most unimportant, important person in the nation.

Okay, who's almost never speaks on television.

She's kind of silent unlike normally people in this role who use the role to bolster

themselves in some way, but she appears not to do that.

Do you want to reveal the name of our subject?

Well, it's Susie Wiles, who is Trump's chief of staff, which makes her in any traditional hierarchy,

certainly the second most important person in the United States government. Now, whether

she is or she isn't, actually is part of our discussion today. But she really occupies a pivotal

...