Welcome once again to another edition of the Conversations, That Matter podcast. I'm your host, John Harris, and we have a special episode for you today. I mean, every episode's special, but this is a little bit outside of what people know me for, right? I focus a lot on social justice stuff and what's going on in the evangelical world on socio-political matters, I suppose. But I want to talk about apologetics. And some of you may know this. Some of you may not,

but apologetics was a big focus. In fact, I, before conversations that matter, when I just had,

I still had the YouTube channel that you're probably watching this on now if you're watching or

listening. I started that, mostly because I was focusing on apologetics.

It was the, they called it the new atheists.

And I was debating them and coming up with videos.

And I even did some formal debates.

And that was the thing.

I mean, I guess I'm dating myself, but 15, 20 years ago.

And, you know, things have progressed and moved on,

and there's different debates and so forth now. But that's still something I'm very interested in.

And I've taught apologetics at my church and obviously, you know, put out videos online, like I said.

So when I saw this article, when I read the article that I'm about to reference, I thought to

myself, self, we need to have the author of this article on. And of course, what I'm referring to is an

article, it's actually on a substack, but it's an article on responding to Brian Mattson. Ryan Mattson wrote

an article called an apologetic thermopylae.

And there was a response to it.

And the response is what I want to focus on.

And it's from the natural theologian, Joel Corini, who joins us now on the podcast

for the first time.

Welcome, Joel. Thank you, John.

Glad to be here. So, Joel, I see debates in the Christian world concerning natural law

...