Michael. Peter. What do you know about San Francisco? Personally, I am thrilled that finally someone is asking homeless people if they've tried not being homeless.

Now, I don't know how much you know about this book, but it's sort of, it's not a mega bestseller. It's like technically a bestseller.

It's one of those books that you see on the shelf that says The New York Times bestselling book and you're like, hmmm.

It's like the trafficking documentary. Someone's buying up copies.

The main reason I wanted to do it is because even though it's not like a freakingomics level bestseller, it's very emblematic of a common set of conservative arguments and popular modes of thinking, both among conservatives and centrist about homelessness.

Yes.

So I know that you're aware of this book, but have you read this book?

I'm aware of Shellenberger as like great friend of Barry Weiss and great enemy of Twitter's attempts to censor conservatives.

That's mostly the kind of him.

And then also I'm sort of like weirdly obsessed with homelessness as an issue, both because like I live in Seattle, which is experiencing a very San Francisco-like homelessness crisis.

And also because I've actually done porting on homelessness.

Like I went to Salt Lake City a couple years ago and spent a week there learning about like what happened to Salt Lake City's whole thing where they quote unquote solved homelessness.

And it got a lot of attention.

I believe in 2015 and then it kind of fell apart for like interesting reasons.

It's an issue that I know slightly more about than for example, like atomic habits.

Right.

I know more about this than rising and grinding.

That's the problem with progressives right there.

Too much focus on how to solve poverty.

Not enough focus on how to get up and go.

So Shellenberger himself has sort of like risen to prominence as a Twitter crank.

Yeah.

...