In this extended episode, Jake and Bob sit down with Christopher Dowling for a deeply nuanced conversation examining the the Catechism of the Catholic Church, ‘camps’ that exist around the Church’s teaching on homosexuality, and how we can love one another while fundamentally disagreeing on how to approach same-sex relationships. Christopher came out as gay in 2018 and is currently engaged to be married to another man. He and Bob know one another from their time in shared ministry, and for the first time revisit how the events of 2018 affected them individually. This is a powerful conversation that we hope is one small step towards healing and relationship as we respectfully dialogue about grief and hope, doubt and faith, sadness and love.

Key Quote:

We stand in different camps, but where we can be united is in reverencing each other, and wanting to understand each other’s heart. - Jake Khym

Key Points:

• Christopher shares his background in the Church, including several major ministries that he’s worked for or spent time with
• Jake and Christopher define what sort of ‘camps’ they see emerging in the conversation around Church teaching and homosexuality
• Christopher shares his experience of ‘coming out’ and choosing to pursue relationships with men
• Jake pauses the conversation to assess how people may interpret the questions that he and Bob are posing to Christopher
• Christopher and Bob speak for the first time about how they both felt when Christopher came out in 2018
• The men take time to address the personal and unique grief and hurt that is at the heart of much conversation around homosexuality and the Church, and how we can do better to listen to one another
• Christopher answers the common question, ‘How can I love you without compromising my beliefs?’
• Christopher speaks to the difference between accepting vs affirming
• The men unpack how the pastoral tone changes around this topic when we’re in relationship with each other and truly ‘sitting across the table’ instead of in a faceless forum
• A discussion ensues about paragraph 2357 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church that references the unexplained ‘psychological genesis’ of same-sex attraction and the ‘great variety of forms’ it has taken throughout history
• The episode concludes, as Christopher puts it, with lingering feelings of doubt, grief and sadness, but simultaneously faith, hope and love

Practical Application:

1. Do you find it difficult to listen to and receive someone who has an opinion or lifestyle that’s different from yours? Practice having a conversation with someone you love without interrupting them to share your own opinion right away.
2. Pay attention to how you feel throughout the episode. What emotions come up for you? Do you feel defensive or grieved by anything that is said? Do you feel encouraged? Consider your involuntary feelings and allow yourself to feel these things without jumping to immediate conclusions.

Resources:

• Catechism of the Catholic Church para 2357

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Audio editing by Forte Catholic