We've all heard the saying that what we've heard the saying that what we pay attention to grows.

But our attention, this precious limited resource is now itself our culture's most valuable commodity. So cluttered our minds can

become in this manipulation and this grasping that we lose contact with our own choice.

We can forget that beyond our phones lay the great expanse of everything.

And remembering to listen to the world around us,

we can encounter the fullness of possibility

and potential and presence.

In this episode, I was really delighted, stoked to talk with Jenny O'Dell, who is an artist whose work has been shown at the

JC Museum, the New York Public Library, and the San Francisco Dump. She is also

a writer of one of my most recent favorite books, How to Do Nothing,

Resisting the Attention Economy. It was a beautiful conversation talking to

Jenny about nothing and also everything and I hope that you really enjoy it.

Jenny, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. You are someone who I hope it's okay to say you're kind of my friend in my head.

So I feel really glad that you said yes to the podcast and excited to talk to you today.

Thank you.

Likewise, that's so nice to hear. I hope it's not too much. We start every episode with this question about finding our way essentially and what I asked guests is to look around

and kind of describe this moment. How would you tell the story of where we are?

And we can be defined, however you'd like to define

we could be in the confines of this country or beyond.

But how would you talk about where we are right now? What do you see when you look out?

I mean, I think there's just a lot of confusion.

Like an image that comes to mind pretty often is just like trying to get one's

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