This podcast, it's a Costerton Touchstone production.

Did you feel comfortable with the techniques?

Frankly, no. And I elected to forego the training.

I was asked if I wanted to be trained in the enhanced techniques,

and I sought the counsel of a senior agency officer, who's still an agency officer.

And I said, what would you do in my situation?

And he said, frankly, I think it's a slippery slope. An accident's going to happen. And I wouldn't do it.

And so I declined. So you did not go through the training? I did not. Have you seen waterboarding?

We waterboarded each other in the beginning to see what it felt like. And it's a wholly unpleasant experience.

What is it like?

You feel like you're choking or drowning.

And are you literally upside down or...

You're on your back with your feet at a slight incline. There's some cellophane or material

over your mouth and then they pour water on this cellophane you can't breathe and it feels

like the water's going down your throat and then you begin choking it it uh induces the gag reflex

but the water's not actually going into your mouth no or through your nostrils no it just feels

like it is it feels like it is because of the pressure onto the under the cellophane correct like a saran

wrap kind of thing. That's right.

And how long did you last?

About five seconds.

Really?

Would you call it torture?

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