You're listening to Robert Wright's Non-Zero Podcast.

Hi, Anatole.

Hello.

How you doing?

I'm fine. Good. Let me introduce this. I'm Robert Wright. Publisher of Nonsero Newsletter. This is the Nonsero podcast. You are Anatole Levin. The director of, I think, what, Eurasian Studies at the Quincy Institute, the Eurasia program. Of the Eurasia program. Yes, director of the New York Program. at the Quincy Institute, the Eurasia program. The Eurasia program.

Yes, direct for the Eurasia program.

At the Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft, you also write for The Guardian and

you've written a lot of books.

In fact, you know, a recent podcast guest was praising your book.

Sadly, she did this after we quit recording sadly for you

but a book you'd written on chuchinia some time ago that she found very illuminating you've written

a lot of other books ethical realism and so on uh and um we are going to talk mainly today about Ukraine, about the war, the political context,

the prospects for it ending at some point.

There's other news today in the former Soviet Union, which I'm sure has escaped your attention,

which is the possibility that war is breaking out between Azerbaijan and Armenia. I want to get to that a little later,

unless you have something you want to say about it right now. I mean, apparently, you know, there's this disputed territory kind of enveloped by Azerbaijan.

It's ethnically Armenian.

And Azerbaijan is attacking it, I gather, today.

Is that your sense?

Yes.

And how bad could that get?

Well, I mean, for the Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh, I think it's probably game over.

...