Hey, listeners, it's Ross, and it's summer vacation here at interesting times,

which means that while I'm dragging my kids to the beach, I'm sharing an episode with you

from my colleague Ezra Klein's show, an episode conveniently enough that features me, Ross Douthit.

Ezra had me on his show this past spring to talk about my recent book, Believe.

But in addition to the book promotion, we covered all kinds of things,

pagan and Christian impulses in the Trump administration and conservatism,

psychedelics and demonic possession, and even the touch of the divine in Ezra's own life.

So with that supernatural content warning, I hope you enjoy the episode and happy summer. I'm I'm I'm

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I'm I always enjoy conversations that I have no earthly idea how to describe.

And today's is very much in that vein.

My guest is my colleague Ross Douthit.

He's the author of Believe, Why Everyone Should Be Religious, a book I

enjoyed very much, even though quite a bit of it I had some questions about. And he's the host of

the new and really excellent New York Times Opinion podcast, Interesting Times, where he has been

interviewing people on the modern American right. This is a conversation about mysticism and the

role it is playing in the Trump

administration and this era in politics and belief. And the role plays in society in our lives,

Ross's argument for why I should be more religious and you should be too. And it also gets

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