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This is the Politics and More podcast. I'm David Remnick.

The software known as Pegasus is probably the most notorious spyware in the world.

It allows users, law enforcement officials, or government authorities to hack into a target's

smartphone, and that gains them access to photos, videos, and messages.

Pegasus can also remotely control a phone's microphone and camera, all without your knowing it.

The software is aimed at catching the worst of the worst, terrorists and other violent criminals.

But once a surveillance tool is on the market, it can be very difficult to control.

Ronan Farrow has a new piece out on the New Yorker about Pegasus and the company that makes it, an Israeli firm called NSO Group.

So one of the things that I think is distinctive about this story, against a backdrop of a lot of good reporting from a lot of good

outlets about this kind of spyware is, you know, I really got to spend time inside NSO group

and their offices in Tel Aviv talking to their software engineers who take evident pride in cracking encryption methods

and opening up people's phones.

And, you know, in the conversations that I had with both the working level people at

...