Robert Sapolsky: The Illusion of Free Will
The Origins Podcast with Lawrence Krauss
Lawrence M. Krauss
4.4 • 592 Ratings
🗓️ 18 October 2023
⏱️ 179 minutes
🧾️ Download transcript
Summary
I have been a fan of Robert Sapolsky’s for a long time. He is a creative force, with wide ranging knowledge, from primatology to neuroscience, and he is also a wonderful expositor of science. His previous book, Behave, was a wide ranging exploration of human behavior, at its best and worst. I have been wanting to do a podcast with him for some time, and the launch of his new book, Determined, gave us the opportunity. I got an advanced copy and we recorded this a few weeks ago, so that this podcast could post on the book’s publication date.
Had it been anyone else, I admit I wouldn’t have bothered to go through the book. I have long felt the issue of free will is overplayed. The laws of physics are deterministic, and since biology and chemistry are based on physics, I have never doubted that free will is an illusion, but have also felt that for all intents and purposes the world we live in is indistinguishable from a world with free will, so we should take responsibility for our actions.
As is often the case when reading Robert’s works, my view has now become more nuanced. His book masterfully discusses the neurobiology behind the illusion of free will, what actually interests me the most, and he effectively demolished claims of numerous philosophers, including Dan Dennett and others, that some magic occurs between the level of neurons and the level of the full brain that allows for some uncaused behavior.
Along the way, we are taken on a masterful and fun ride through modern neurobiology. And at the end, Sapolsky confronts the more serious question of crime and punishment in a world where free will is an illusion, and convincingly argues that in a world where bad luck early on gets multiplied throughout ones life, society can far more effectively and honestly deal with crime by abolishing the notion of punishment, replacing it with behaviorally more effective methods.
In our podcast, as we always do, we discussed Sapolsky’s origins. What got him interested in science. How did his 30 years working with primates impact on his view of humans, and more. I found it a fascinating discussion, and I hope you will too.
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Transcript
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| 0:00.0 | Hello and welcome to the Origins podcast. I'm your host, Lawrence Krause. |
| 0:13.3 | Robert Sapolsky is a genius, or so says the MacArthur Foundation, when they gave him a genius grant. |
| 0:20.7 | Whether he's a genius or not, |
| 0:22.3 | I've known him personally and of his work for many years and have always been impressed by both |
| 0:29.1 | the depth and breadth of his work. You can tell how accomplished a scientist he is by how many |
| 0:36.0 | departments he's a member of at Stanford. |
| 0:39.3 | He's a professor of biology and neurology and I think neuroscience and who knows what else at Stanford University. |
| 0:47.3 | And he's worked on primates and neurobiology and a host of other things, wrote a great book called Behave. |
| 0:56.2 | And he has a new book out. |
| 0:58.2 | And the new book is called Determined, The Science of Life Without Free Will. |
| 1:04.1 | When I heard about it, I wanted to speak to Robert. |
| 1:07.5 | We've been for years trying to set up a time to talk in general about aspects of neurobiology. |
| 1:14.6 | And this seemed like a good starting off point. And I got to read the book before it came out. |
| 1:20.6 | And it's a long book. And for me, it was a challenge initially because as someone who recognizes that there is no such thing as free will |
| 1:30.1 | based on the laws of physics and has seen a host of books that I find rather tedious about free will |
| 1:36.3 | by some by people I've known I was a little worried about reading this but I knew that Robert |
| 1:41.0 | always has gems to share and the book is is chock full of his own perceptions. |
| 1:48.2 | It's fun, just like he's fun. |
| 1:50.8 | And one can learn a lot about neurobiology. |
| 1:55.2 | And then discuss the important question of once you accept that there is no such thing as free will, |
| 2:00.7 | he really takes on head |
| 2:02.0 | first the more difficult question of what do you do about responsibility and guilt and blame. |
... |
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