Hi, Bill Crystal here. Welcome to conversations. I'm very pleased to be joined today by Bob Kagan.

We've had previous conversations

on American foreign policy and the history of American foreign policy, his most recent book,

Rebellion, I highly recommend, and his two volumes on the history of American foreign policy until

1940. Is that right? I think it's...

1941. 1941, one or two more volumes to come.

We'll anticipate those.

But meanwhile, you've been working on the current moment and in a big picture sense.

Where are we in American foreign policy and in, I guess, the world as shaped by American foreign

policy?

So let's talk about that.

I really, I know we've discussed this privately.

And I think there's a lot of interesting things to be, you have a lot of interesting things to say, so I look forward to your saying them.

So, welcome, and where are we? I mean, is, is this moment different from all previous moments or all recent previous moments? Or is it just, you know, like a blip or a little bit of corruption ladled on to a traditional

American foreign policy or what? Yeah, I mean, normally in my sort of historian hat, I'm reluctant to say

things have changed radically because things don't really, I mean, there is change, but there's also

usually tremendous continuity. And that's particularly been true of American foreign policy since the end of the Second World War. And it's

not that there haven't been huge debates about American foreign policy, but mostly American

policy, you know, with a new administration, regardless of whatever the rhetoric they've run on,

usually it's about 10% one way or 10% up the other way in terms of our foreign policy.

But now I think we really have had a real, we're at a moment of a real break and a real

discontinuity and the beginning of return to, I think the best way to put it is

...