What's up, everybody? My name is Demetrick Afinas, and you're listening to Hidden Forces,

a podcast that inspires investors, entrepreneurs, and everyday citizens to challenge consensus narratives,

and to learn how to think critically about the systems of power shaping our world.

My guest in this week's episode is Benjamin Braden, a professor of visual arts at UC San Diego,

and the author of a recently published book titled Revenge of the Real, Politics for a Post-Pandemic

The book explores how our collective response to the COVID-19 pandemic demonstrates a critical

inability on the part of society to govern itself. The pandemic in this sense serves as a sort of

non-negotiable reality check that appends the comfortable illusions of a world that increasingly

bears no resemblance to the one we have vacated. It's a conversation that raises important questions

about not only how we came to find ourselves in our current predicament of mask wars, urban riots,

and institutional decay, but also how we might go about constructing a world that is more

representative of reality and the needs of the present moment. This part of the discussion continues

into the over time, where Benjamin and I explore what a post-pandemic world might look like,

and what this means for our conceptions of governance and the individual. So without any further ado,

I bring you my conversation with philosopher and author Benjamin Bratton.

Benjamin Bratton, welcome to Hidden Forces. Thanks for having me.

It's great having you on. So you and I have spoken briefly by phone and just now I read your book

this weekend. I think the entire framing of the book is fascinating and it touches on a lot of

the topics that I've raised on prior episodes of Hidden Forces. Before we get into the book,

I'd love for you to describe yourself because you're a rather eclectic guy. You seem to have

you don't fit into a box and not even close. So how I'm curious how you describe yourself

and what are your interests? What drives you?

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