4.8 • 9.4K Ratings
🗓️ 23 December 2025
⏱️ 40 minutes
🧾️ Download transcript
Shannon Hale is the author of more than 50 books for all ages, including the Princess Academy series and her graphic novel memoirs. In this episode, Adam and his daughter Joanna (a longtime fan of Shannon’s books) talk to Shannon about the powerful lessons books teach us about empathy, and take a closer look at how stories can either reinforce or dismantle the gender stereotypes kids learn early on. The three lament the decline in leisure reading, and brainstorm ways to nurture new readers and keep students interested in books.
Host & Guest
Adam Grant (Instagram: @adamgrant | LinkedIn: @adammgrant | Website: https://adamgrant.net/)
Shannon Hale (Instagram: @squeetus | Website: https://shannonhale.com/)
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| 0:00.0 | This story, like any good superhero, actually has an origin story. |
| 0:05.0 | So I've got four kids. My second, her name's Magnolia, and one day she was wearing this butterfly skirt. |
| 0:11.0 | And she pointed to the different colors on it, and she said, |
| 0:15.0 | Mama, pink is a girl color, and purple is a girl color, and yellow is a girl color color but not black. And I was like, what? |
| 0:22.6 | Like, of course girls can wear black. And she said, but mama, princesses don't wear black. |
| 0:28.1 | And for her, a princess wasn't about a royal title or being the child of a monarchy. That didn't make |
| 0:32.7 | sense to her. A princess was, you know, a girl plus. In fact, one time when she was even littler, she asked me, |
| 0:40.2 | Mama, do you want to see me turn into a princess? And I was like, yes. And she clenched her fist |
| 0:46.4 | and her face scrunched up real tight and she began to shake, shake, shake, and then she would |
| 0:51.2 | and it was like the Hulk transforming. And I realized, |
| 0:57.1 | okay, her concept of a princess is just a girl coming into her full power. So if you limit what a |
| 1:03.2 | princess can do, you're limiting what a girl can do. So when she said a princess can't wear black, |
| 1:07.9 | I was like, well, we got to make sure we've got a princess who can do anything so that a girl knows she can do anything too. |
| 1:17.2 | Hey, everyone, it's Adam Graham. |
| 1:19.1 | Welcome back to Rethinking, my podcast with TED on the Science of What Makes Us Tick. |
| 1:23.7 | I'm an organizational psychologist, and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people |
| 1:27.9 | to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking. |
| 1:34.8 | Shannon Hale is one of my favorite authors of children's and young adult books. |
| 1:39.1 | They've been a huge hit in our household, starting when our kids were little. |
| 1:42.7 | Joanna and my oldest started with Shannon's Princess Academy series, |
| 1:46.5 | and then as a middle schooler moved on to her graphic novel memoirs, |
| 1:49.9 | which she's read hundreds of times, |
... |
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