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Hello, I'm Tina Dehealy and this is Beyond Today from BBC Radio 4.

Today is a Friday episode where we like to invite someone in to get their take on what's going on in the world. Today it's Rennie Edo Lodge. It feels like every week there's an incident involving race that goes viral online.

Last week it was Danny Baker Swift exit from Five Live and consequent tide of backlash.

But it could have been any week, any number of binary views.

Ignorant person says ignorant thing, cue tied of rage on both sides, and a deluge of opinion pieces

and backlash. The heat and understandable fury of marginalised groups versus the indignation of those who feel they've been unfairly treated.

Look, beyond today we often wonder, given how frequently they occur, what we can learn from

the patterns and when the dust has settled how we might

constructively move on from these social media storms to a more progressive place.

One person who's truly dedicated her entire career to unpicking the language and culture of systemic racism is Reni Edo Lodge.

She wrote the award-winning book, Why I'm no longer talking to white people about race and it articulated the frustrations

of people of colour all over the world and started having a conversation about race in a way

we haven't really had before. In fact she's just got back from a tour and she came in to see us and to help us

have a go at carrying on that conversation in the best way possible.

Ready, welcome to the podcast.

Hello, thanks for having me. Great to have you on.

Tell me, what have you been up to lately? I've been traveling a lot. Okay. Yeah.

So, my book's now out in a few different languages, I think six or seven in total, including English.

It takes me to very interesting places around the world to discuss it so I've just got back from Canada I was

in Montreal accepting an award the Words to Change Award from a literary festival there.

Congratulations. Thank you very much. That's exciting.

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