Welcome to the Animal Law Podcast.

We're going to do something completely different today.

You know, as lawyers going case by case, we occasionally, especially on this podcast, get embedded in the weeds and fighting for minor, even if incredibly important, improvements in how

animals are treated. And it's hard to see the big picture. But it's always important in any

movement for change to know where you're going. And our guests today know where they think we should

go. And that is to include animals, in fact, all sentient beings, in the Constitution.

And this notion is obviously fairly radical. And it's also in line, I think, with most people actually think, that animals

should not lie completely outside the law, and they should be in our foundational legal documents.

So opinions may obviously differ as to exactly where their place within the law

is. But before we get to that, just let me take one moment to remind you to subscribe and like on

YouTube or wherever you listen to podcasts and to our other podcasts, The Henry Port and Rising Anxieties.

And now let me introduce our guests. Rafael Fasel and John Adenitiree are the

authors of the soon-to-be-released Animals and the Constitution towards sentience-based

constitutionalism. Rafael is an assistant professor in public law at the University of Cambridge,

a fellow of Jesus College, and co-director of the Cambridge Center for Animal Rights

Law. In addition to animals in the Constitution, he is the author of More Equal Than Others,

Humans and the Rights of Other Animals, and co-author of Animal Rights Law. John is a senior lecturer

at Queen Mary, University of London, School of Law, and a co-director of the forum on

Decentering the Human, an interdisciplinary research center. He has published extensively on

constitutional rights and animal rights and teaches, among other things, animal rights law at Queen

Mary. Welcome back, gentlemen. Thank you very much. Thanks for having us, Mary. I am excited to be

diving into this, both because I find all of this extremely intriguing. And the book has so

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