When you drive a Chevy electric vehicle, you're getting more than a way to get from point A to point B.

You're saying goodbye to gas stations and how low to open roads.

With the growing network of public charging stations, you'll be able to charge your EV while you shop, work, or do whatever you want to be doing with your time.

Chevy is making EVs for everyone, everywhere. Go to chevrelay.com slash electric to learn more.

Sabotage hired goons and a landfill in Utah.

How Steve Jobs' revolutionary catastrophe of a computer, the Apple Lisa, earned a brief second life, and then was buried for good.

Watch the Verges documentary, Lisa's final act, now on YouTube.

Hi, I'm Cara Swisher, Editor-at-large of Recode.

You may know me as someone who didn't need to go from Good to Great because I was always great, but at my spare time I talked tech and you're listening to Recode Decode from the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Today in the red chair is Jim Collins, who has written several much-admired books about how to grow and manage businesses, including Built to Last, Good to Great, and How the Mighty Fall.

His new work is a companion piece to Good to Great called Turning the Flywheel, which is one of my favorite words, Jim, welcome to Recode Decode.

It's a real privilege to be here.

Thank you. I'm so excited. We had a little talk before. This started about, you read my book, my book, which I has been out of print, I think, for a while.

But I wrote two books on AOL, a million hundred years ago, and you were pointing out some stuff around it.

I was right, about the early internet.

These were books about how the internet happened, essentially. You do more about studies and how things fail and how things succeed, and this was just a recounting of the growth.

Then the second chapter of AOL, which was very negative, and it continued to be as it went down the line.

I was glad you read it. I hadn't thought about it in years, and you read back to me one of my quotes, which was kind of funny.

Yeah, and it's interesting because, I mean, it's like you had a deep dive in this one really rich case, which was emblematic of the entire sort of wave 1.0.

And then through the AOL time Warner thing, and at the end of your second book, you have this line, where you say, despite all that everything that's happened in this story, I'm still in love with the digital future and its promise and the internet.

But a lot's happened since you wrote that. That's right. 2003, something like that, right?

In the wake of everything that happened. And so I just want to start with the question for you, which is, have you fallen out of love?

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