Rebroadcast: An FBI agent went undercover in America’s extremist groups. Here’s what he learned.
Apple News In Conversation
Apple News
4.2 • 1.8K Ratings
🗓️ 25 December 2025
⏱️ 28 minutes
🧾️ Download transcript
Summary
This episode from our archives is our most-listened-to interview of the year. It was originally published in June 2025.
In his 22-year career in the FBI, undercover agent Scott Payne infiltrated some of the most dangerous criminal and extremist groups in America, from a motorcycle gang called the Outlaws to a white-supremacist group known as the Base. Payne shares his firsthand case accounts of gathering intelligence and stopping illegal activity in his memoir, Code Name: Pale Horse; How I Went Undercover to Expose America’s Nazis. His story is also featured on the latest season of the Slate podcast White Hot Hate. Payne sat down with Apple News In Conversation host Shumita Basu to talk about some of his most harrowing moments on the job and the growing threat of extremism in the U.S.
Transcript
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| 0:00.0 | Hey there, it's Shemita here. |
| 0:02.2 | Our team is taking a break over the holidays, so while we're away, we wanted to share an audience favorite from earlier this year. |
| 0:08.9 | This was actually our most listened to episode of In Conversation for 2025. |
| 0:13.4 | I know it stuck with me. I hope you enjoy it. |
| 0:19.6 | This is In Conversation from Apple News. |
| 0:22.8 | I'm Shemitabasu. |
| 0:23.8 | Today, the undercover FBI agent who infiltrated America's neo-Nazi groups. |
| 0:36.5 | If you've ever seen photos of modern-day militia groups or white supremacist groups, |
| 0:42.4 | you've probably noticed some common themes among the members. |
| 0:45.6 | Mostly men, mostly white, in tactical gear, with tattoos, bandanas, and patches displaying |
| 0:51.8 | their beliefs. |
| 0:53.1 | And if my guest today, Scott Payne, were in one of those |
| 0:56.3 | photos, you probably wouldn't be able to tell him apart from the rest of them. I usually say it |
| 1:01.1 | jokingly, but I'm like, these are my people. When I say these are my people, I'm not saying |
| 1:04.9 | a white supremacist group are my people. I'm just saying my skill set and my look and what I do leads me to those kind of cases. |
| 1:13.3 | Scott is a retired FBI agent who spent part of his career undercover in American hate groups. |
| 1:19.3 | He's out with a new book called Code Name Pale Horse, How I Went Undercover to Expose America's |
| 1:25.1 | Nazis. It's a remarkable account, not only of his singular career, |
| 1:30.6 | but also of the many criminal and hate groups that are operating in America today. |
| 1:35.3 | You've got, I'm not going to say millions, like there's millions of white supremacists and |
| 1:39.8 | Nazis are going to be on your doorstep tomorrow, but let's just say that there are thousands, |
| 1:44.9 | and people are still being recruited. |
... |
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