Hi and welcome to the A16Z podcast. I'm Hannah. This episode is all about rebel behavior with

author and Harvard business professor Francesca Gino, who wrote the definitive book on rebel talent

based on studies of why leaders and employees make the decisions they do at work. Not all rebels

are troublemakers and rabble rousers. Rebels often change the world and the workplace for the better, pushing organizations towards creativity and innovation and out of stagnation with their unconventional outlooks. We start with what rebels and rebellious behavior in this context really means to the values and characteristics these types of leaders tend to have and stories

of how rebels can create constructive and positive change. So in your previous work, you had

focused on rule breaking, but in the negative sense, what caused you to shift towards the positive

aspect of rebellious behavior? What I wanted to do is shift our thinking when it comes to rebels.

I had spent so many hours in organizations

where the rebels are thought of as the troublemakers, the outcasts, people who break the rules

just for the sake of breaking rules without too much thought. Sometimes they're even called

the jerks or the people who slow you down in decision-making processes.

I really wanted to shift that thinking and say rebels are in fact not people who break

rules just for the sake of breaking rules, but there are people who break rules that hold them

and others back in a way that is positive and constructive for the organization.

In your definition, rebel is positive, someone who understands those rules and chooses to

push past them in creative ways.

That's exactly right.

So I've been spending quite a bit of time in all sorts of organizations and I was researching

different leaders, spending time with them,

looking at what was unique about their ruleworking that was creating positive change

for their organizations or society more broadly.

I'll give you a concrete example of this story that really brought it together for me.

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