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Learn more at Stripe.com. Welcome to Rationally Speaking, the podcast where we explore the borderlands between reason and nonsense.

I'm your host, Julia Galef, and I'm here with today's guest, Professor Alison Gopnik.

Alison is a professor of psychology and philosophy.

She's famous for her work on developmental psychology, How Children Learn.

She's the author of several books, including most recently The Gardner and the Carpenter,

what the new science of child development tells us about the relationship between parents and children.

Alison, welcome to rationally speaking.

Hi, glad to be here.

There are a few things I wanted to talk to you about today, but let's start with your recent book.

You argue in your book that people, modern parents, think of parenting as akin to carpentry, where you have a blueprint

in your mind for the kind of person that you want to create, and you try to shape your child

accordingly as they grow through teaching them how to behave, instilling discipline, teaching them

good values, getting them classes in

chess or piano or, you know, SAT prep, et cetera. But actually, you argue in your book,

children are not so much analogous to, you know, kind of raw lumber that you could shape

...