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The Lawfare Podcast

Rational Security: The “Pickled Fish in Cozy Sweaters” Edition

The Lawfare Podcast

The Lawfare Institute

Military, Intelligence, International Law, Constitutional Law, Rule Of Law, Politics, International Relations, News, Government, History, Diplomacy, Terrorism, National Security, Current Events, Law, Foreign Policy

4.76.2K Ratings

🗓️ 22 October 2025

⏱️ 79 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

This week, Scott sat down with his Lawfare colleagues Senior Fellow Eric Columbus, Ukraine Fellow Anastasiia Lapatina, and Public Service Fellow Loren Voss to talk through the week’s big news in national security, including:

  • “Visiting Concessions.” President Trump once again turned his focus to the conflict in Ukraine, announcing last week that he and Russian President Vladimir Putin would be meeting to discuss the conflict in Budapest—though it’s not clear Putin has agreed. This occurred just days before a planned visit to the White House by Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, where Trump reportedly pressured him to make territorial concessions requested by Putin in exchange for an end to the conflict and failed to respond affirmatively to his requests for Tomahawk missiles and U.S. security commitments. Is this a real shift in the U.S. position? And what might it mean for the broader conflict?
  • “Posse ComiSCOTUS.” After months of litigation in the lower courts, the Trump administration has finally gone to the Supreme Court regarding the legality of its domestic military deployments, seeking a stay on an injunction on its planned deployment to Chicago that was recently left in place by the Seventh Circuit. How big a decision point is this in terms of the legal authorities around domestic military deployments? And how does the Court seem poised to rule?
  • “Material Contort.” Just weeks after designating ANTIFA a “domestic terrorism organization,” the Trump administration has brought its first set of related criminal charges, relating to a July event at a Texas immigration detention facility that left one police officer shot in the neck. The indictment includes charges under the material support for terrorism statute—but probably not the one you’re thinking of. How much does the indictment stretch the usual use of these statutes? And what does it tell us about the Trump administration’s anti-ANTIFA campaign?

In object lessons, Loren thinks we should play more and recommends Wayside Farm for a pumpkin-picking, maize-mazing good time. Eric thinks we should get cozy more with a second-skin, chambray-shirt classic. Scott thinks we should reflect more with a majorly-meditative, lightlessly-enlightening retreat. And Nastya thinks we should read more with eloquent-essayist Zadie Smith’s cultural commentary, “Feel Free.” 

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Transcript

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0:00.0

Nastya has been a while since we've had you on the podcast, reuniting lawfarers and Raft's career's kind of global, global reach. I missed you, too. But you are not just, I understand you've not just been, you're not just our key correspondent at the moment. You've been doing a little globe trotting yourself. Where are you coming back from? I was in Norway around a week ago.

0:22.1

So jealous.

0:22.8

In Oslo. It was so good. I love Norway. I love Norwegians. And I have a actually, good that you brought

0:29.6

that up. I have a nice little sweet piece of gossip for you. So I was hanging out with some

0:36.0

officials from the Norwegian government after some of the more serious

0:40.6

meetings we had at the parliament and such. And I ran into one senior official who said that he

0:47.8

was a big fan of rational security and a loyal listener. So, you know, that was very nice to hear. Oh, yeah. There

0:56.4

you go. A beautiful country of Norway. So I was thinking of you the entire time, Scott.

1:00.7

Hey, I'll take whatever you can get. You know, I'm a big, I'm a big Norway fan having never been.

1:05.9

But I love, I love feeling cozy. I love chunky sweaters. I love angular architecture. So I'm all for

1:13.8

wood natural patterns, but it's kind of in a modern, sort of unnatural take. That's what I'm all

1:18.9

about, man. Get good with it. The style and fashion choices just make me want to cry in the best way.

1:25.1

Unbelievable. And I could maybe even get talked into, actually, now's well, I will never try pickled fish, but I'm happy to watch other people eat it.

1:32.6

I tried whale.

1:34.3

Whoa.

1:35.4

Yeah.

1:36.0

How was it?

1:36.9

I think I'm yet to try moose, is it?

1:40.0

There is some other very weird local stock that's just normal for them, like a cow in Ukraine, but for me it's way too exotic.

1:48.5

But yeah, whale, it just tastes like chicken liver, which I used to eat a lot as a kid.

1:53.7

Not something I'm going to particularly be grabbing, you know, every other lunch, but not, not disgusting.

2:03.6

Yeah. know every other lunch, but not, not disgusting. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Rational Security, the show where we invite you to

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