Rachel Maddow on Japanese Incarceration During WWII, Mass Deportation & Media Chaos

On with Kara Swisher

New York Magazine

Society & Culture

4.2 • 3.2K Ratings

🗓️ 11 December 2025

⏱️ 59 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

Rachel Maddow is an author, podcast host and producer, documentary producer, and, of course, the anchor of her eponymous show on MS NOW. Her newest podcast, "Rachel Maddow Presents: Burn Order," unravels how the incarceration of more than 100,000 Japanese Americans and Japanese immigrants during WWII was planned and carried out. Shockingly, the full story behind one of the 20th century’s worst American human-rights abuses might never have come to light if not for the relentless work of a hobbyist researcher — who had been incarcerated herself. Kara and Rachel dig into the story and explore the parallels to President Trump’s mass-deportation policies. They also discuss the recent boat strikes on alleged drug traffickers, the escalating drama around the competing bids for Warner Bros. Discovery and what it signals for the future of the news business, and MSNBC’s evolution into MS NOW. Please note: This episode was taped on Tuesday, before President Trump said it was “imperative that CNN be sold." Questions? Comments? Email us at on@voxmedia.com or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Threads, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0	We just moved into Versant headquarters.
0:03.1	Versant.
0:04.0	Like croissant, I've decided.
0:07.2	Also good for rashes and other skin conditions.
0:10.7	Yes, ask your doctor about Versant.
0:13.4	It's on. Hi, everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.
0:28.4	This is on with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher.
0:31.4	My guest today needs no introduction, and frankly, is one of my favorite people.
0:34.9	Rachel Maddow is an author, documentary producer, podcast writer, producer, and host, and of course the host of our show on MS Now.
0:42.5	She has a new podcast called Burn Order that tells the story of the incarceration of Japanese Americans and Japanese immigrants during World War II.
0:51.3	Like all of Rachel's podcasts, it's deeply research, brilliantly executed, and has
0:54.7	clear echoes with the present. She's a history wonk. I love history. This is why I'm so excited
0:59.9	to talk to her about, because the topic she takes up have happened before in America. And I think
1:04.8	the linkages she makes to today are really important to understand. But it's also important to
1:09.8	understand what people did that and who did what and who the heroes were.
1:13.8	And I think it's critically important to look at our history to understand that we have faced issues like this before.
1:19.5	We will face them again. And I think Rachel does a great job using history to teach us that.
1:24.6	We're going to dig into the podcast, obviously, the contemporary parallels and a bit of news around foreign policy, and of course the news around Warner Brothers Discovery.
1:31.8	Our expert question comes from Caitlin Dickerson, a staff writer at the Atlantic who covers immigration, who both Rachel and I have great regard for.
1:39.5	But before we get to it, I'm interviewing Darra Kos Costa Shahi, the CEO of Uber and Chris
1:44.2	Ermson, the CEO of Aurora, live on stage at the Hopkins Bloomberg Center in Washington,
1:48.8	D.C. on Monday, December 15th. These are going to be two really sharp conversations about
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