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Thank you. Hello everybody. This is David Drabkin at Psychedelics today and welcome to another vital psychedelic conversation.

In today's episode, we had the pleasure of meeting with Dr. Andrew

Tatarski and Juliana Mulligan, both from the Centre for Optimal Living. And I've met Andrew and

Juliana before being here on the East Coast and working in addiction. And they're both pioneers

in the field of harm reduction. And it's great to see the training opportunities that are

currently working on, as well as the deep clinical work that they're doing right now with people,

especially people that use drugs. And one of the main pieces that we explored in our talk was

this concept of addiction and someone that is using substances, how can we unpack that and have a

bit more compassion and actually see that they're not actually quite so different to ourselves

or to all of us in how addiction and this substance, whatever it might be, makes us feel about ourself and the shame and blame and need to

hide our relationships with substances, that comes from the war on drugs in particular.

So we talk about that very openly.

And Juliana also talks openly about her personal experiences of being an opioid using person in the past

and how her subsequent experience with Ibergain treatment really changed her life

...