Hello and welcome to Brokeonomics.

Now last week, Fraz and I had a very interesting chat about the formation civilization.

And when it comes time to look at the layers that Christianity builds on that or what Christianity builds around that, Carl has some strong opinions because it includes the desert people

who, of course, he identifies with often.

So, Carl.

No, I don't.

I like pre-Islamic, the pre-Islamic Middle East because it's so alien.

It's such a different civilization to anything that we have had in our history, that it is fascinating.

And it's just completely strange.

Well, I'll set the argument, and we're joined by Farras, of course.

So that's very much for us.

So I'll set the argument.

What I'm basically saying is I'm looking at religion as a civilizational technology.

And what is special about Christianity is it adds something every environment that it moves through.

And essentially what I'm saying is, and we've got a mix here, somebody who isn't particularly religious, somebody who is trying to be religious and, somebody who is religious, I'm not actually going after the religious angle on this. I'm not trying to be religious either. Are you going to church? Yeah, but that's because I have to, not because, because I think it's good for the kids and my wife wants to do. I'm not religious. There must be some sense of trying to engender a bit of

religiosity somewhere. I just don't feel that. Oh okay. Well, that's kind of where I am.

It's not a feeling. It's an act of will. Slight difference. Okay. Yeah, after first.

Anyway, so what I'm saying is, is that what I think religion really is, aside from the moral stuff, which we won't

get into on this occasion, it is a civilizational technology for lowering the cost of governance

by making enforcement cheaper.

Well, I mean, that's what Christianity is.

Yes.

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