This is John Batchelor, conversation with Evan Thomas, the author of Road to Surrender,

Three Men in the Countdown to the End of the World War, too.

What is significant here is that Togo, the Japanese Prime Minister at the end of the war,

was always at risk from his own side because he was looking to negotiate a surrender that did not

destroy Japan forever. And that negotiation was in front of the Army and the Navy that had a

reputation for assassinating prime ministers or leaders who did not follow their course.

It reminds me of a situation we're looking at right now in Ukraine.

President Zelensky is the leader of the country.

It's also a vulnerable target to those in the country who do not want to negotiate or surrender or invoke a ceasefire or in any fashion deal with Russia.

Not a prediction, just something that's happened before.

The end of the wars are dangerous.

Evan Thomas on Togo, the Japanese prime minister, he was not assassinated.

He managed it. But it was a near thing right at the end. More of this later. Well, he's different. And it helps to have somebody who is

blunt. But of course, the military doesn't want to hear it because they want to control him.

In Japan, there's something called Haragai, which is a, I'm not sure I'm pronouncing this exactly right, but it means the stomach game.

The Japanese certainly, I think then now, too, to some extent, but certainly then.

At the top, they communicated indirectly.

And you were supposed to know what the other guy was saying.

This allowed for a lot of faith-saving if he avoided open confrontations. The military did not like

Togo forcing this issue. They wanted to control the show, and they wanted to fight to the end.

And so Togo was a brave guy. He could easily have gotten himself assassinated.

In the 1930s, three Japanese prime ministers were assassinated. It was called government by

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