So earlier this week, we did an episode on Tony Ben, which is obviously a very luke-heavy subject.

And after we finished recording, Will said, I'd like to do an episode on my Tony Ben, one Mr.

John Waters, by which he meant, you know, somebody whose work is formative and important to him.

I think he more than anyone else, you know, I didn't read Susan Sontag's notes on camp until a lot later.

And he more than anyone else suggested to me that there was a cultural sensibility or an approach towards culture that went beyond a strict dichotomy of good or bad, or went beyond so bad it's good. Susan Sontag's famous definition of Camp, which is that

it's failed seriousness. Or later on when John Waters did an appearance on The Simpsons, his character

said that Camp was the tragically ludicrous or the ludicrously tragic. I mean, that was a

sensibility that really excited me

and suggested there were whole other ways of viewing the world, also whole other cultural phenomena

that might be worth studying. And I'm sure we'll get into this a little bit more, too, but he was

somebody who also seems to exist at the exact intersection of high and low, melding all sorts of

sensibilities from all sorts of places. If I can ask you a question, one reason why I chose

female trouble, partly I think it's because it's John Waters' best movie, or at least his

most representative film. But I also think it might lead to some

productive friction between the two of us, because, you know, I think it's obviously a funny

movie, but I wasn't sure if it's a movie that you would necessarily gravitate towards,

or that sort of its aesthetic is one that you love. Is that a fair question to ask? I mean, it's tough,

because on a kind of an intellectual level, I

I very much enjoy what it's doing, but I, I won't lie that I didn't find, I mean, it's actually,

I've seen it before. And I mean, I won't lie that I, I don't find it a hugely pleasant sit.

I mean, it's, I mean, it is pretty gross. But I mean, I respect the way that it's gross and how

it kind of like, leans into that.

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