Welcome back to the podcast, bribe, swindle, or steel.

I'm Alexander Rogi, and today we're talking about art and how it can become a currency

and a tool for circumventing sanctions.

Joining me today are Yulia Hannaat and Irene's Harsis.

Yulia is ecosystem projects and development director and co-founder at the Museum of Contemporary Art NGO,

the Ukrainian Museum of Contemporary Art and the Ukrainian Emergency Art Fund.

She's based in Kiev.

Irina is founder and managing director at the Center for Art Law.

She's based in Zurich and in New York.

Thank you both for joining me.

Thank you.

Thank you, Alexandra, for inviting us.

Can you just start by helping us to understand the problem,

the overarching issue of money laundering and sanctions evasion through art. I will try to answer this very large question of the overarching issues of money laundering through art. The art market is an

international sphere and many participants are interested in participating, selling, buying,

being seen in this space. Money laundering is the process of

criminal proceeds used to disguise their legal origins. And the art market is a place where

traditionally a lot of agreements were done in person without necessarily robust documentation.

Art market has this reputation of being opaque. And while most of the

transactions involving art are perfectly clean and clear, we have plenty of examples from across

the art market spheres where art can be used to launder money. And we've seen examples demonstrated by the Panama Papers.

We've seen examples demonstrated by Nazi-era-luted art and many other instances

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