Three-dimensional transforming, musical, linguistic objects.

Helper Choles.

Greetings from Cyberdelic Space.

This is Lorenzo and I'm your host here in the Psychedelic Salon.

And today I'm going to play another one of the tapes that my friend Mack Larson gave me a little while back.

This one is from August of 1985 and it features Terence McKenna and Ralph Abraham.

I asked Ralph if this was their first Esslin conversation, and he said, well, it may have been,

although it wasn't the first time that they spoke together.

Before this talk, they appeared well at the Omega Institute in upstate New York and at Open Center in New York City.

In any event, this is a rare old recording, apparently made by Paul Herbert, according to the label,

and this one is labeled No. 7 unedited.

So it may be a new one, I don't know.

Now, before I listened to this recording, well, I was feeling kind of bad about the fact that I had to tell Ralph that I didn't feel I was any longer up to the task of interviewing him about his latest book, which is amazing, by the way.

But in this recording, as he was interviewing Ralph, Terrance said, and I quote,

I don't fully understand Ralph. No one does.

And then he went on to say that he would try to interview him.

Now, I don't feel quite so badly about losing my edge for doing interviews.

Even in my prime, I still needed somebody to help me interview somebody like Ralph.

And the irony here is that he is so charming and unassuming that he doesn't even realize how blindingly intelligent he is.

And, of course, that intimidates me.

Now, in this conversation with Terrence McKenna at Eslin in 1985, if you listen closely and have read Schism, Ralph's latest book, I think you'll see that way back in 1984, he was already laying the foundation for it.

Now, as to the recording I'm about to play for us, I think it's a great example of the free-wheeling camaraderie that existed between Terrence and Ralph, and it also shows how laid back and

...