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Find out what it all means at the end of this podcast.

Welcome to Hard Talk with me, Stephen Sacker.

My guest today is at the tender age of 34, one of the most

prominent advocates for one of Europe's most controversial governments. He is Pavel

Yablonsky, Poland's deputy foreign minister. He represents a nationalist, populist, conservative

government, which finds itself embroiled in a political

and institutional crisis with the European Union, of which, of course, Poland is itself a member

state. It boils down to this. The EU wants to tie the disbursement of billions of euros in post-COVID economic assistance to

members' adherence to core European values, specifically the rule of law.

The governing Law and Justice Party in Poland sees that as a threat to its sovereignty and

political agenda, and they have an ally in Victor

Orban's Hungarian government. Together, they're refusing to allow passage of the entire EU budget

until this rule of law linkage is abandoned. It is a high-risk strategy, and it's plunged

the EU into a procedural crisis.

How far is Poland prepared to push its defiance of Brussels's will?

Well, Pavel Jablonsky joins me now on the line from Warsaw.

Welcome to Hard Talk.

Welcome, Stephen. Thank you for having me today.

It's a pleasure to have you.

Now, 25 of 27 EU member states want to see the EU budget and a recovery package post-COVID

past. You and the Hungarians are blocking passage of this massive financial package. That's a dangerous place to be, isn't it?

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