Welcome to the Conversations That Matter podcast. I'm your host, John Harris.

We have with us today for the first time, Patrick Casey.

He is the host of the Restoring Order podcast.

And he also does writing for organizations like Chronicles Magazine and The Blaze.

And he's here to talk with us about the so-called woke right.

He did a piece recently in Chronicles Magazine, which I thought was really good on this subject. And of course, those who follow me know I did a piece recently in chronicles magazine which i thought was really good on this subject and

of course those who follow me know i did a piece as well and we share i think a lot of agreement

about this critique and how ridiculous it is and so uh i appreciate him coming on to discuss it welcome

patrick thank you happy to be here. Yeah, thank you. Well,

let's start here. You wrote an article for Chronicles Magazine on James Lindsay, and the title

is James Lindsay is wrong about wokeness. And that's kind of like a bold thing in a way, because

James Lindsay has made his bread and butter and his whole public career

about wokeness and with the assumption that he is an expert on this and he does seem to

understand a lot about modern critical race theory and how it works and he's read the sources.

So in what sense do you think that he is wrong about wokeness?

And is it just because of the woke right stuff?

Or do you think in general he's wrong about it?

I'm sure he's wrong about all sorts of things, frankly.

But the main thing to keep in mind with James Lindsay here is that he has an agenda that takes precedence over accurate analysis of or honest analysis of wokeness.

He has, his new niche is combating the woke right and he'll still go after what he calls the woke right doesn't really exist.

And, and of course, the woke left.

But he just is, when you have a political project, then a lot of oftentimes people who engage in intellectual history and

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