Welcome to an HBO podcast from the HBO late-night series Real Time with Bill Maugh.

Hey, we are back and Michael Hayden does the effectiveness of drones outweigh the moral concerns about them. Good question.

I meant to get that. It's a great question. And there's always a trade-off. And even if the first order of effect is what you want and you achieve it, you always create second, third and fourth order of effects that you're going to have to pay a tariff on sooner or later.

So you don't do it lightly. The line I use with regard to drones and our current circumstances.

We don't need to switch. We need to dial. Meaning when meaning that there's still times when such an activity is necessary when we've got an adversary wants to come in over the perimeter wire and kill you, me, our families.

When you have a host government unwilling and or unable to act, you need to keep this tool available. But again, it can't always be the default option because you have to live them with second and third order effects.

I read your article about it. You said it's greatly exaggerated. How many civilians it is? It is. But there are also says it's necessary precise and imperfect.

But again, the alternative, if you look at us in Iraq 10 years ago, kicking down doors, actual soldiers on the ground getting killed and killing a lot of other Iraqis, I don't know if that's better.

But I also think drones probably do create a lot of terrorists.

As I said, trade-offs. Let me give you a thought. It's kind of viewed as antiseptic. It's a video game. It's not really warfare. We are from our side.

The people who operate them in tremendous emotional strain because they actually become intimately familiar with the target, with the reaper over a target.

The target hours, if not days, you see the family, you see the interaction. You see this as a human being. If that's still the target, you know, he kisses the kids, he kisses the wife, he gets in the SUV and he gets 400 yards away from the compound where you can now take your first shot consistent with the laws of armed conflict.

And you do, even though you've established this great emotional bond, it's not a free ride for the people tactically. It is, however, very alluring at the political level because it allows you to do and be seen as doing something without embracing the political risk of putting Americans in harm's way.

Friend labor, what explains your antipathy toward the Clintons? Yeah, you don't like the Clintons.

No, am I alone in this? No. No, I mean, I think everybody else has mixed feelings. Mine aren't that mixed, but... Right.

Well, you know, I believe that you can only really judge your contemporaries. You know, people younger and older than you, you were kind of guessing, but with your contemporaries you can really read them.

And Bill Clinton was the first person in my generation, he's older, but still my generation, to be the president, to run for the president. And the second I saw him, I thought, I know this guy would die school with him.

You know, I didn't like him then, I don't like him now. So I think my antipathy is that I understand him. You know, I don't like him. To me, he seemed like a Republican. You know, I didn't like his policies. When he signed that welfare bill, I went insane. You know, I mean, he was way to the right of me.

A lot of his success was about moving the Democratic Party to the right. Yes, he was a successful moderate Republican president. Right. But I'm a liberal Democrat, so that is why I didn't like him. He'll be in the same, really. You know, Chelsea Clinton is just a throw in to the mix. It's not her fault, but... Right, but she's not helping. Yes, not helping. Right.

But I'm body for Hillary Clinton, and I want her to be the president, because it doesn't matter if you like them. You're not going to have dinner with them.

Michael Eric Dyson, how would you grade Obama as a, quote, black president, not even sure? As opposed to the... I am not sure with that. The other Obama, you know, the...

The other, the... Oh, they... Look, I think he's going to go down as one of the most incredibly successful and consequential presidents in the history of this nation.

...